Image source: generated by Unbounded AI

Youzan's 12th anniversary conference, the theme is "Business without Volume", Youzan CEO Bai Ya (Zhu Ning) expressed his understanding of "no volume" this way - you can increase sales without being tired, "you only need to wait for customers to come to the store, take orders and ship them."

But the experience of merchants is far different from this. In front of the exhibition board at the venue, there are always participants who express the same emotion, "There is no one who doesn't roll this year." Youzan’s current main customers are retail merchants. This year, merchants have experienced: women’s clothing return rate as high as 90%, the platform once launched “refund only”, and bottom-line price war... When consumption slows down, what do you think, supply The merchants on the side are all very good at rolling, and the rolling is very specific.

For example, some customers said that they have already made a WeChat mini program using Youzan products, but the video account now supports WeChat stores. Should they open another WeChat store? Similarly, does Xiaohongshu also want to open a store? His hesitation is: there is not much natural traffic to reopen the store, and the orders completed may not cover the costs of recruiting operations, customer service inquiries and inventory adjustments. Should he do it or not?

In the past, online choices were limited, but now there are many channels, making it more difficult to do business in China. In addition to grasping the cost-effectiveness of products, merchants now also need to conduct operations and private domain content marketing through multiple channels such as video accounts, Xiaohongshu, Douyin, Kuaishou, Dianping, Meituan, JD.com, Ele.me, Taobao and so on, because The consumers are there. But the problem is that each additional channel also means additional operating costs.

For merchants’ troubles, Bai Ya’s answer is AI. Since the end of 2022, he has conducted research and personally led a team to explore the practical application of AI. Now he has given a phased answer. In his opinion, using AI to generate marketing graphics and texts like overseas companies is not the solution; in the specific scenarios of merchants, delivering results and being responsible for the results is the way out for SaaS companies. This is what Youzan launched at the 12th anniversary conference The reason for the agent scheme. Now, a Youzan agent can help merchants write and publish seed copy on Xiaohongshu, and can also complete inventory adjustments, customer service inquiries, etc. in WeChat stores. These are all AI-automated processes and do not even require human presence. The middle takes over.

After experiencing the expansion of online business brought about by the 2020 epidemic, and then actively shrinking under market competition and macroeconomic environment, pursuing the ultimate human efficiency, Bai Ya is full of respect for the laws of business. Now, although Youzan’s AI solution is still free, Bai Ya firmly believes in the path he has found. He announced that he would select 10 customers and personally lead the team to provide fully managed intelligent solutions. The merchants would not have to take care of anything. Youzan would help the merchants to operate the entire AI workflow until the merchants had results and brought in turnover. If you like it, consider sharing the income.

Let SaaS deliver results directly. This is the popular "anti-involution" answer, and it is also the change that is currently taking place in the SaaS industry.

Under the AI ​​​​change, SaaS is no longer "Software as a Service" (Software as a Service), but "Service as a Software" (Service as a Software), using software to directly deliver the final service, selling services instead of tools . In other words, AI allows software to become digital employees, or AI employees, directly competing for human budgets and subverting existing software and labor models. SaaS companies have also ushered in a bigger ceiling and have the potential to become the largest labor dispatch company in the world.

In the Chinese market, it is difficult to sell software tools at a reasonable price, but selling final delivery services is easy to see the value and price. This may also be the way out for Chinese software.

Regarding the changes taking place in the SaaS field and Youzan’s practices, Youzan CEO Bai Ya and COO Huanfang accepted interviews including Geek Park after Youzan’s 12th anniversary conference. The following are the main Content:

01. In the past two months, the supply side has gradually figured out how to do SaaS+AI

Q: To what extent has AI been used internally to improve efficiency?

Bai Ya: Our customer service efficiency has been very, very high, and 70% of customer service problems have been eliminated. In the past, merchants had to search for keywords in the help center and look up answers in the help center. Now they can ask questions directly on the smart assistant, and AI can solve the problem.

For another example, almost all of our customer service inspections are completed using AI.

Also in the past year, about ten percent of Youzan’s sales efficiency improvement came from the help of AI.

Q: How can I help?

Bai Ya: I don’t want to say how to do it specifically, because I haven’t seen any Chinese SaaS peers doing it.

In addition, in terms of product and R&D, at least in terms of the efficiency of product interface design, there used to be more than thirty UI designers, but now there are only two; when it comes to R&D using AI, 30 people can make 100 people. The output and R&D output have increased.

In fact, each piece (efficiency improvement) may not be that big, but in fact, the overall efficiency improvement and subtle impact are very large.

And I think this is not just AI, but more about the role of intelligent tools and digital tools. To give a very small example, there are two entrances on the official website of Youzan's "Add My Intelligence". One entrance is to go to Youzan's workbench to find an agent to use, and there is another entrance on the right for customers to sign up for full hosting (agents operation). ) used.

Screenshot source: Youzan official website

How to make this entrance? In the past, I had to develop an information collection program myself, and then make statistics and then notify. Now it is made using Feishu form. It looks pretty good. Click on it and it will be a Feishu form. You fill it out.I can immediately receive a notification from Feishu Robot, which automatically forms a multi-dimensional table of Feishu. This developer only took 20 minutes per day.

What I want to express is that the efficiency improvements brought about by digitalization and intelligence are first of all conceptual changes. As long as you change your philosophy and get used to finding tools for everything that follows, this problem will be solved.

Q: Half a year after its full launch, to what extent has "Add WoSmart" been achieved? What’s the customer feedback like?

Leo (Huanfang): I think that for a long time in the past two years, there was no clear progress in the entire industry. Everyone is waiting for the technological breakthrough of the large model itself. The past six months have been relatively clear months in terms of application progress. The industry has increasingly seen how AI can be used. For example, we will have automated products such as intelligent assistants, business experts, and business consultants.

In terms of usage and interaction activity, the supplier may have just figured out what to do in a month or two, and the current direction and path are becoming increasingly clear; from the user's perspective Speaking of it, it is still in a very early stage, and there are still a lot of gaps - "it turns out it can still be used like this."

Q: How much do customers actually pay for AI products?

Bai Ya: We have not charged yet, and the following fully managed services will not be charged (shared according to the effect).

Q: So how do you judge that “Jiawo Intelligence” (Youzan AI product) is getting better and better and is getting closer to PMF (product market fit)?

Bai Ya: I think this is a matter of rhythm at different stages of development. Last year, it was mainly used internally. This year, it was a product that merchants began to use. In the past six months, it has begun to deliver results one by one. By 2025, all our products should be aimed at delivering results.

I actually don’t like to evaluate today’s AI for any company, whether it is a SaaS company, Whether it’s our customers or other companies in China, I think today’s questioning of how much specific value AI has created is no different from calling it a retard in the first place.

Now we need to see whether it has been used. We will wait until the middle of 2025 to see if anyone can evaluate how much efficiency and transaction volume the use of AI has brought them. .......Because the results haven't come out today.

I can tell you a number. In the past two months, the cost of Youzan tokens (which consume large models) has increased tenfold. The cost of tokens for model manufacturers is actually decreasing, but our cost of consuming tokens has increased 10 times, which means that a large number of merchants have really started to use AI.

Q: To look at the effects of AI in the longer term, there are currentlyJihe merchants have begun to receive positive feedback from their practices. This gives you confidence in the impact AI will have on SaaS.

Bai Ya: I think first, I saw the data in Youzan myself; second, I saw the active use of merchants; and third, in the smart agent we created, it really Solve the problem significantly. Youzan’s improvement in sales efficiency today was really brought about by a few people, and those few people were using AI to solve problems.

As for whether to add AI to SaaS, it won’t change much about the long-term development speed and status of SaaS companies in China. You must be an AI agent. It makes no sense to build a bunch of software functions composed of GUI interfaces in the past, and then use a bunch of software functions composed of AI. You must use AI to directly solve the problem, and you must use AI to directly bring sales to it. Increase the repurchase rate. If AI cannot directly provide results, it is not a good AI. If it is just a function, no one will have higher profit margins.

Q: Agents are closely related to the complex reasoning capabilities of models. Before the technology reaches AGI or Autopilot, is it too early to talk about the implementation of agents in enterprise scenarios?

White Crow: I think the topics everyone is talking about are not the same topic, because people who talk about such big topics are basically from a human perspective, such as robots, consumption, medical treatment, etc. But what I am solving is a very closed question: a merchant has such a workflow today and how to use a machine to complete these tasks. It doesn't matter whether it is AGI or not. As long as I can deeply understand its workflow, business flow and data flow, I can solve the problem even with algorithms. It's just that because of the emergence of AI today, I don't need a complete algorithm model. It’s cheaper to build, cheaper for merchants to use, and that’s about it.

You said you are training a model today. From the perspective of AGI, how do you solve primary school mathematics? So difficult. But if you think about it in terms of closed mathematical problems, it's really simple. From the perspective of AGI, the topic I am talking about is not worth mentioning at all, because it is too closed, so closed that there are actually 10,000 ways to solve the problem.

Q: What are the requirements for complex reasoning of large models, especially long sequence decisions, for an agent like this that solves problems under a closed workflow?

Bai Ya: In fact, the content of the large model does not need to be that high, because it is nothing more than using the large model to understand the user's intention, and then the results are arranged by the large model. To allow users to better understand all the processes in between, our own data and algorithms are actually used.

Q: A smarter RPA?

White Crow: To give a simpler metaphor, the software actually puts a shell on the database, but today there is a new thing that may eat up the software. It is better to put a shell on the data. ofshell.

In the past, you had to arrange a bunch of business logic, but today you only need to understand the basic business, and many of the above things can be solved with models.

Furthermore, the software is a shell on the database, packaging a very complex GUI maze; today, after understanding the basic business flow, a ready-made, can be built on the database. The facilities that are directly used, even the maze, are gone, so it is just a digital employee one by one, and it is a digital employee who gives specific results based on specific tasks.

02. SaaS will definitely pay based on results in the future

Q: Today, Youzan has launched a fully managed (on behalf of the operation) model. Youzan helps customers create intelligent agents to automatically host services such as WeChat stores and Xiaohong Shushu stores. Customers pay according to the results. Why do you think this new business model is feasible?

White Crow: Because as long as it is deduced, it must be like that.

Two things. First, AI enterprise services must be able to deliver results directly to users. It is not about selling functions to users, but delivering results to users; if you don’t force yourself to talk about my business model It’s only tied to results, so how do you get there? Therefore, we should not sell functions, but should be directly linked to results.

Only accept 10 fully managed customers, because I have to do these 10 agency operations myself. I will lead a new department in the company to do agency operations for these 10 companies, and watch every content, every comment, every private message, every product on and off the shelves, every order, after-sales and AI sales, no. This is definitely not possible.

Youzan Intelligent Platform｜Image source: Youzan

Q: SaaS in the AI ​​era is not software as a service, but service as software. The former is a subscription-based software tool, while the latter is where AI employees compete for human budgets, use AI to deliver final services, and sell services instead of software. What do you think of this view?

Bai Ya: I don’t know, I’m not good at creating these concepts, but I know clearly that I must deliver the results, I must be responsible for the results, and I must do it myself in order to truly understand it. What exactly is that business? Only then can that business be completely reconstructed.

Q: When you officially announced the launch of the intelligent agent today, some customers asked in the audience, can choosing an intelligent agent guarantee performance?

White Crow: I am free. If you give me money if I have performance, I will definitely do it to ensure the results, so I am free, but if it has no effect, it will be fine if you don't give me money.

Q: In the past two months, the consumption of Youzan’s large model tokens has increased 10 times and is still rising. Will there be no charges?

White Crow: I don’t know. Now that the cost is still bearable, I think it is possible that SaaS will add AI functions, and appropriate charges will be included in the service fee.noodle.

But for the intelligent agent, I prefer not to use a prepaid method, because whether it is charging software fees or tokens fees, they are not serving the results. I think taking responsibility for the results is what AI really wants to do.

The issue of Tokens cost should be resolved soon, as not much attention has been paid to it in the past few months. Recently, we have improved the recognition rate of our own model. In the past, the accuracy rate of writing prompt was only 68%, but now the accuracy rate of the self-trained model is 98%. It's not that hard to improve in a narrow area, now it's just a matter of switching to our own model.

03. Because of AI, Salesforce doubled the IT budgets cut by large companies

Q: In the ToB field, what are the AI ​​products that have inspired you recently?

Bai Ya: I think there are two American companies that actually use AI in a state that is quite consistent with their ecology.

One is Salesforce, because Salesforce has almost all major customers around the world, especially in the English-speaking market, so as long as there is a new concept, it can have good revenue growth.

Salesforce released Agentforce, and there were even rumors that they were going to change the company name. I think they are doing the right thing in terms of business strategy, although their AI products are still difficult to use. Almost all large companies in the English-speaking world have cut their IT budgets in half, but multiply this budget by two as the new digital budget for AI. For this part of the budget, Salesforce has the ability to circle it and then allocate it to the ecosystem.

In the short term, there will be a large number of small innovative startups in vertical industries, which may squeeze out some of Salesforce's vertical industry markets, but Salesforce's basic market should be improved because of this. Growth, because he circled that wave of budget.

On September 12, 2024, Salesforce, the world’s #1 CRM, launched Agentforce, a suite of autonomous AI agents that empower employees and handle tasks in service, sales, marketing and commerce . ｜Image source: Salesforce

Q: What do you think of Salesforce’s AI strategy in the long term?

White Crow: I don’t know, it just depends on how much new startup companies in the United States can cannibalize it.

Then we made a very interesting AI product ourselves, which is the product I talked about today, "Knotting Notes". In fact, it is just a large data search, but the final results of its data retrieval will benefit many brands, because it can quickly understand what consumers want, and there is still a lot of room for expansion.

We are also working on an AI product for product design. People who like it are using it as angel users, which may be interesting.

Q: Are there other products?

White Crow: 11x.ai is also quite interesting. It actually designs agents for each role, and then charges customers according to the work orders of each role.

But I think this is not suitable for China, because if you treat each agent as the name of a current job type, it means that you think the workflow does not need to change. If you want to think that workflow has changed, it shouldn't be the name of the job now.

This approach is more suitable in the United States, because the workflow of medium and large-sized enterprises in the United States is relatively stable, and they will not have to transform today and do whatever they want tomorrow, so 11x.ai can adapt to the American market.

04. SaaS is valued at less than 5 times PS, which is extremely unreasonable

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Q: There is a view that Youzan has platform dependence or traffic dependence. For example, in 2020, 50% of merchants in Kuaishou’s live broadcast e-commerce used Youzan, but later Kuaishou made its own merchant-side tool. Do you think Youzan has gotten rid of the so-called platform dependence problem?

Bai Ya: I don’t think Youzan has any platform dependence. I am an e-commerce company in China. Is there any platform dependence? If you are a merchant, if you are an e-commerce service provider, even if you are an ERP, an e-commerce agent, or any participant in e-commerce, do you have platform dependence?

I think all e-commerce may not rely on platforms, but on traffic, but China’s traffic is on the platform. Fortunately, Youzan is no longer an e-commerce company. Most of Youzan’s revenue is already in stores, and soon most of it will be in stores. Therefore, we are only serving stores, and there is no problem of platform dependence.

In the past, the value provided by Youzan in the early days was too thin. It only opened an e-commerce store and conducted e-commerce transactions. When the live broadcast comes, the live broadcast is the original product details, and this thin value becomes a cashier. But since 2016, we have been doing offline digital systems, online marketing, membership operations, entire new retail solutions, CRM systems, shopping guide solutions, including the current AI, none of which are thin, so it is not Depends on any platform.

In other words, the merchant does not need our e-commerce, our mini program, or our H5 mall. He can completely use other malls, but he can use Youzan’s shopping guide, CRM, and online shopping mall. digital system, AI, use whatever you need to use, it can definitely be done like this. On the contrary, if you just go through and build a transaction service for e-commerce, it is indeed too thin.

Changes in the average valuation multiple of SaaS over the past 16 years | Data/picture source: SaaS Capital

Q: The current stock price of the SaaS industry is relatively sluggish. How do you see the future growth space?

Bai Ya: As CEO, first of all I can only ensure that I do two things well. The first is to do my best to make strategic decisions. Second, do your best to personally find solutions to the most important things in strategic decision-making and the things that customers are most concerned about, and get them done.

As for the stock price, I cannot decide it. It is determined by the market. There is nothing I can do.

Chinese software is being valued today at less than 5 times PS, which I think is extremely unreasonable. If a SaaS in China is profitable today and its revenue is growing, I think it should be 10 to 15 times PS; if it is profitable but not growing much, it can be 8 to 10 times PS.

Valuation is about buying the future. How can any software company be valued by PE? If you use PE and profit to value a software company, then the software company might as well just pay dividends, because the stability of software companies is too strong and PE should not be used to value it.

What we can do is to do a good job in our business, create value for customers, and allow employees to grow. It is best if the market can return to rationality. If it cannot return to rationality and cannot be rationally valued, then I Just pay dividends.

05. The women's clothing industry has a 90% return rate, but some businesses are doing relatively well

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Q: Currently, the apparel industry as a whole is facing a very serious problem. The return rate is very high and the sales cycle is very short. On this issue, how can the product functions and ecological services provided by Youzan help merchants?

Leo: From what I know about merchants in the clothing industry today, there are only a few ways out. The first is offline, the second is branding, and the third is segmented markets. It is possible to reduce the return rate.

Online brands are also looking for ways to do offline business. Because he calculated his accounts and found that doing clothing business online felt like futures trading, and it was no longer a clothing business. Anyway, since returns are like this, I simply stopped producing. What I sold were all futures and pre-sales, and it gradually turned into a two-volume business. Therefore, those merchants who are serious about making goods and doing well can simply go offline.

For another example, building a brand requires a premium price and a deep relationship with customers. You (contact) with a person for 5 minutes in the live broadcast room is like buying 10 items and getting 8 items back, and even gods can’t save it. But if you have long-term interactions with customers, have exposure, and are a brand that already has a mindset, I think it is okay.

But even brands lack traffic and reach channels. This is what Youzan can help merchants do, such as through offline shopping guide solutions, which can reach them more frequently and more refinedly. reach users.

Cycling enthusiasts ride along the greenway for fitness | Image source: Visual China

Third, look for vertical subdivision scenes. In the past two years, good business in major categories has almost disappeared. There may be one or two every year, but you can work hard to find some small scenes where the business may be good. This has a lot to do with consumer trends. For example, in the past two years, there have been niche outdoor sports, such as skiing, camping, cycling, running, etc. After the epidemic, the overall health care and wellness are not bad, and there are also some national trends, cultural tourism, and cultural creativity. In short, it would be better to find a less volume place with some subdivided scenes. But honestly, just like Guerrilla, this non-volume spot gets washed away pretty quickly. It’s just whoever sees the trend first will follow it quickly.

Basically, I only see these three perspectives. If there must be some help in the product, the return rate in the private domain itself is lower than in the public domain.

Bai Ya: I think there are several data that can actually be seen. Based on operations based on consumers or based on stores, this problem in the clothing industry will be much better.

For example, the return rate of private live broadcasts is only over 20%. Just like Leo said just now, if a stranger tricks you into buying it in two or three minutes, you will not be able to return it 80-90% of the time. The return rate of private live broadcast is only 20%.

In addition, the return rate for private e-commerce purchases online and the goods sent to stores is very low, only about 10%.

The return rate in stores is even lower. After trying it on in the store, the return rate is negligible.

We also see that the unit price of private live broadcasts and online private e-commerce is more than 200 yuan. Generally, online clothing now costs less than 100 yuan per customer. So after looking at these data, you will find that there are still good ways to make clothing.

Q: Which business segment has seen the best growth this year at Youzan?

White Crow: Offline, offline chain stores.

Q: Have there been any changes in the digital operation of offline chain stores in the past year? Which stage are you at now?

Bai Ya: I think the biggest change in the past six months is that in the past, everyone was still thinking about what digital system I want around purchasing, selling, depositing, and cashiering; today everyone is thinking about how to do it. Repurchase, how to do multi-channel marketing to build his offline digital system.

Because it’s impossible not to do it. Today, it is almost impossible to open a chain store in China without doing anything online; it is almost impossible for you not to double the customer repurchase rate. If you cannot handle either of these two things, your business will not improve. This is something that everyone has to accept.

Q: In recent years, have you noticed that the number of customers entering offline from e-commerce has increased significantly?

White Crow: Yes, but everyoneIt requires an adaptation process. Customers from e-commerce to stores do not need to adapt to us (corresponding products), but they have to adapt to offline, how to manage shopping guides, how to decorate... it is also quite difficult.

Q: In the past year, it was actually more difficult for businesses to operate. The pursuit of quality-price ratio and replacement was a big challenge to profits and efficiency. From the perspective of Youzan customers, what are some of the more successful breakthroughs?

White Crow: I didn’t think it was difficult, it was just that it was too easy in the past.

In the past, GDP increased by about 10% every year. With the urbanization process every year, so many people flooded into the city, consumption soared, and everyone was happy. We have forgotten that we should pay attention to quality-price ratio, we should care about repurchase and quality, and we should get rid of charm. This is a good consumption concept and this is a positive trend.

Of course, low-quality and low-price rolls are terrible, but I think high-quality and low-price rolls are normal.

Q: But now the direction of volume is heading towards a price war.

Bai Ya: We haven’t seen it. I don’t think people in the private sector do it this way, and people who operate around customers don’t do it this way. Again, our overall customer price exceeds 200 yuan. Is there any platform in China whose customer price exceeds 200 yuan?

Q: From the perspective of merchants who have like customers as business operators, what are the ways to break through the sluggish consumption?

Bai Ya: I think the first thing to do is to see how consumers’ preferences change. Merchants will follow the changes in consumers’ preferences. This is for sure.

But as I said just now, if you follow the changes in consumer trends, you will still get caught, because everyone will see that trend, but some people will see it early and some will see it late, so your only way is not to do this Do it, focus on your consumers, focus on your consumers' additional purchases, stocking up, distribution referrals, and repeat purchases. I think this is the only solution from a business perspective.

06. AI can allow you to work only four days a week, but "volume" is a problem of human nature and culture

Q: The theme of today’s Youzan 12th Anniversary Conference is “Doing Business Without Curriculum”. Some viewers said that there are still businesses that do not roll up. From the perspective of Youzan, how to do business without volume?

Leo: I think there are two parts. From the perspective of volume reduction, I think the entire consumer business is about building brand and customer relationships, brand value and deep relationships with users. How can we achieve this? This is the important thing.

You ask, everyone wants to do customer operations, but they don’t have time to do it. They are busy doing things that seem necessary, and everyone is working hard on things that are simple and repeatable and feel like they can generate income or results. Speed ​​and efficiency, but in the end you may not be able to compete.

But today is a start. We see a solution that can be handed over to tedious and repetitive things that require a lot of data.Machines can then allow everyone to focus on things that are more valuable in the long term.

Bai Ya: To put it bluntly, if you have a customer repurchase rate, your business will not need to be compromised. An offline clothing store's annual customer repurchase rate is less than 35%. Our leading, well-operated merchant has a 180-day repurchase rate of 60% and an annual repurchase rate of 80%, so there is no need to roll up.

Also, today I really spent too much time doing what I had to do, but in fact it was very repetitive work that did not create value. In the AI ​​era, these things can definitely be done by machines. There is no need to use your own body to roll every day. No matter how hard you roll, you will never be able to roll the machine. You can’t learn how to do each channel, and if you recruit someone to do it, he/she may not be able to learn it, and you may not be able to retain someone who can.

The AI ​​era has arrived, and I firmly believe that within 10 years at most and 5 years at the fastest, Chinese people will only need to work for 4 days, so there is no need to be so busy and find tools to solve problems.

In Bai Ya’s view, Youzan agents can use AI to help merchants increase sales and improve operational efficiency. |Image source: Youzan

Q: AI can improve efficiency, but can it help merchants increase sales? Or is it just raising the bar for merchants to compete? In the end, everyone will use AI to roll, and even more.

White Crow: No. Look, N years ago, when software was eating the world, what was on your desk? Bookshelf, notepad, pen, printer, photos, watch, work calendar... What is on your desk today? A mobile phone and a computer are gone. This is how software eats the world, and all you have left on your desk is your phone and your computer.

So do you say that humans are becoming more and more curly? No, it’s getting easier and easier.

Q: No, I feel like I’m spending more time at work.

White Crow: This is actually an issue of technical equality, and efficiency has been improved.

Then there is another kind of test, which may be an attitude or cultural problem. I think it has something to do with the culture of a region and has nothing to do with the technology itself. If you look at it from a technical perspective, it is the change of people. Gotta relax.

When software eats the world, people become more relaxed. Then if you are 10 times more relaxed and you set a 100 times goal for yourself, then you will be even more tired. That is another topic.

But I want to say that it becomes easier to serve the same goal. Then when AI eats up software, people will still be more relaxed. But if AI eats up software and makes it 10 times more efficient, and you set yourself a goal of 100 times, you can't blame AI.