Source: Information Justice

Musk believes that

Break everything is the only way.

They want you to focus only on destruction, and not notice that you live in a destroyed world.

Destruction is everywhere, and it is difficult to figure out what has been destroyed.

You will not feel angry,

only feel powerless.

At first, Elon Musk's Department of Efficiency (DOGE) had a narrow role. President Trump's executive order said DOGE aims to "modern federal technology and software, maximizing efficiency and productivity."

But over the past few weeks, Musk has clearly played a much bigger role. He gained access to computer systems, disbanded the United States Agency for International Development, and launched a fierce attack on his platform X, accusing the agency of committing various conspiracy crimes.

I watched it all happening and wondered how Musk evolved: how he went from being a traditional Obama-era liberal who focused on climate change and wanted to go to Mars to A right-wing conspiracy theory spreader, a person who actively assists Germany's far-right election and dismantles the American federal government?

What led to this transformation of Musk? He has considerable control over it, so what actual changes will he bring to it?

To discuss these issues, I invited Kara Swisher. Kara is one of the best tech journalists today. She has been following Musk and other tech CEOs who have become important figures for many years.

——Ezra Klein

This article is broadcasted on February 7, 2025 by The New York Times podcast "The Ezra Klein Show" The text record compiled, and the translator deleted it. In this episode, Ezra Klein discusses with famous journalist Kara Swisher about Elon Musk's purpose of getting involved in the federal government and what exactly made him Become so extreme. Carla Swisher is a famous American technology journalist, columnist and podcast host. She has long reported on technology giants such as Apple, Google, Facebook, and Twitter. She is good at revealing industry insiders and executive dynamics. She often goes to technology company executives in interviews. Asking sharp questions is direct, sharp and merciless, and is called "the fearless critic of Silicon Valley."

What the hell is Musk wanting Why he becomes so extreme

Ezra Klein [hereinafter referred to as Ezra]: Kara Swisher, welcome back to the show. How would you describe itDescribe Musk's role in the federal government in the first weeks of Trump's second term?

Cara Swisher [hereinafter referred to as Kara]: I speak more strongly than the New York Times. The Times is like this: This person is so interesting, right? And I think he is acting in a one-man show, a big iron ball for demolition, really. Trump took advantage of his.

He can be described in many metaphors. It can be said that he is a garbage dump dog [note] and always rushed to the front and carried out damage.

[Note] The English is junkyard dog. Literally, it means a ferocious dog guarding a waste yard or garbage dump, and it is extended to an animal or person with particularly vicious behavior.

He does the same thing as he treats his own company. He does the same move every time. Now he amplifies those movements and uses them to the Federation.

Dramaster Musk

Ezra: Please tell me what actions are they and what is his script?

Kara: Over the years, his drama has emerged one after another, and that is his usual style. He can perform drama masters in a moving way.

He was once worried about Tesla's fate and even slept on the floor at Tesla. He seemed to cry when he was interviewed by the New York Times. In one of our chats - this is the off-camera part - he said: If Tesla can't hold on, humans will be done.

I think it's a bit exaggerated. I thought to myself: Wow, this man in his forties thought he was the center of the universe. He is always a drama artist.

Electronic games have a great influence on him. Some people describe him as the number one player, and others are NPCs - non-players. He must be a hero, or the most important character. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it is his planner – he is not actually the founder, but plays the role of founder, or tampers with history, or uses PR to shape himself into a founder.

He knows very well what the "Hero's Journey" is, and the interests of things must be extremely important - "If you fail, we'll be done." He likes to exaggerate the problem. Most companies have problems, but he will say: Everything here is a disaster, and I am here to save it. Either say: Everything is terrible, everyone before was criminals, evil, or, "pedophile" - a word he particularly likes to use.

In a tweet, he called Yoel Roth, the former head of trust and security at Twitter, a “demon.” He also said I was "full of rage" - it was too exaggerated and ridiculous. I'm not full of hatred.

Ezra: This is very Trump.

Kara: Yes, that's it. But I think he is serious. Trump sometimes just wants to behave—like a reality show.

"In the upper class, it is legal to violate the law."

Ezra : One thing Musk did in the federal government was to find the level of information and funds: the Ministry of Finance's payment system, the Personnel Administration, where Musk installed his cronies. They used this method to install many people in the Federation.

In the grand narrative told by Musk, what did he ask his subordinates to do when he took over? What is the theory of action?

Kara: The people around him are just executors. People in Silicon Valley are like that, with many minions. They all rely on him, usually younger. They would laugh at the jokes he told.

Once he was interviewed at Code Conference, he told a very crappy joke, and several listeners around him laughed. I thought at the time: This is not funny at all. They looked at me as if I had three heads.

What did they do-find the levels is not difficult. They entered in a non-conventional way—not necessarily illegal—though I suspect it may have violated several laws. But they don't care whether it is illegal or not.

They entered forcefully, and the command: show me the code; why don't we go in? We went in. We have laws and federal bailiffs. Let's see what they do to us.

What Musk often does is: express his thoughts, and then wait for others to sue, or wait for others to stop him. No one can stop him.

This is also very Trump: no one can stop it.

We abide by social rules, and they directly ignore the rules.

Ezra: I want to focus on this kind of violation of the rules. What Musk and Trump understand in different ways is that in the upper class, it is legal to violate the law or violate the rules. Generally, there will be no problem, although someone will sue you.

But prosecution requires legal basis and is handled through court, and the process is very slow.

So, compliance with laws and rules is only conventional. If the law and rules are not followed, the action will be faster than the court's trial.

They can fire everyone—below the protection of civil servants, many may be illegal. But so what? They will file a lawsuit in half a year or four years and may receive some compensation. Companies often take this approach to those who organize trade unions.

But many restrictions on administrative departments do not actually work. Because by the time the law follows, you have achieved what you want to achieve. This is a very clever opinion.

Kara: Yes. If caught, he is willing to pay. He is willing to appeal legally. Many people think: I don’t want to fight with this person, he has unlimited money.

Reporters must think twice. This is how the media company's settlement: in the Kamala Harris incident, CBS did nothing wrong, but they paid for the settlement; Meta obviously did nothing wrong with Trump, but still paid. Either compromise to calm things down or compromise by exhaustion. He can destroy anyone.

If you mess up, if you don't pay the bill, you can probably escape because you won't be caught. In terms of business, he is: let 90 rockets explode because the 91st will succeed. He has this attitude towards everything.

Ezra: To be fair, he made some good Rockets.

Kara: It is true. But who else can do this? NASA can't let the Rockets explode because if one of their rockets explodes, it's over. It is a real advantage to be able to continue doing it after the Rockets explode.

Ezra: This involves deeper issues. What are his various strategies and strategies for?

He tried to build a Rocket that worked in some way, and he succeeded. Frankly, I think the world has been better because of his efforts. Tesla has experienced many failures, but it has indeed built better electric cars and has promoted the transformation of electric cars.

But what does he want now? What vision does he want to realize now with such great power?

Kara: Not money. I don't want to say that, but for many of them money is not that important. Of course, some people do like money very much, but what is more important is the power and decision-making power brought by money.

His initial idea was: I have good ideas, I want to put them into practice. Now it is: I have ideas for every topic, so what I say is what.

This is a kingly attitude: go to his parliament, go to his court. Fundamentally, there should be a king - a CEO with unlimited power.

To some extent, he had strange ideas about the limited life. He wants to be a legend. Back to the video game, I think he wants the glory in the game, and he has those pictures in his mind. It was not to give him excuses, but to try to explain - he saw himself as a hero on the journey.

By the way, he is not a hero.

He is not an adult

Ezra: I agree that he wants to fight for power to realize his ideas, but I don't understand why he did Become so radical. Musk's philosophy seems to have changed. Peter Thiel, who co-founded PayPal with him, has always been very right-leaning. You can see what he wrote when he was at Stanford.

But Musk was a standard Obama-era liberal. His series of companies are trying to solve problems that liberals valued in the Obama era. These companies survived by Obama—from contracts to electric vehicle subsidies to loan guarantees.

Tesla survives with Obama's loan guarantee. Although Musk joined Trump's advisory board in 2017, he withdrew from the committee after Trump withdrew from the Paris Climate Agreement. Therefore, this person operates a public-private partnership and has been working with and is committed to issues such as climate change. However, in just a few years, he became very right-leaning.

[Note] Peter Peter Thiel is the co-founder of PayPal, an early Facebook investor, and a Palantir founder. He is also an important thought leader and funder of the American right. He supports Trump, sponsors conservative politicians such as J.D. Vance, and promotes the deregulation of the free market, anti-identity and technology industries. His "From 0 to 1" has a far-reaching influence and emphasizes that monopoly is the way to success. As a bridge between Silicon Valley and right-wing politics, he not only shaped the modern technological landscape, but also deeply influenced the American conservatives and discourse system.

Kara: You are right. During Obama's administration, he supported Obama. When he first joined Trump, he also sent me this text message: They are anti-gay, I want to stop it; I want to change Trump's ideas, only I can do it.

He was not against Trump at that time, but he was definitely not pro-Trump. Although he agrees with Trump's thief thinking.

He changed during the COVID-19 pandemic. He wasn't so rebellious before. I mean, he is arrogant and is typical of technical work, but what he does is fun. During the epidemic, I noticed that he had changed, became obviously frustrated, and obviously became more dramatic.

If you think your company is crucial to the future of humanity, and California shuts down due to the epidemic, you will fall into that emotion. He became unreasonable. In an interview with him, he said that only a few thousand people—I don’t remember the exact numbers—would die from COVID-19, saying that he had read all the research reports, so he knew, and I didn’t.

He never likes unions, or regulations, people like him never like. This idea has become more solidified during the epidemic.

I think the problem of his trans daughter has also had a profound impact on him. I noticed that many tech people with trans children suddenly became - basically like losing their minds.

The Wall Street Journal reported that he was taking drugs such as ketamine. I think that changed him, although they all beat the medicine -

[Note] Ketamine is an isolated anesthetic drug, belongs to the third category of controlled drugs in the United States, has psychoactive, and will be Abuse as a drug.

Ezra: I know a lot of people use ketamine, but they don't become so right-leaning on it.

Kara: Still staying up late. He had a strange schedule and did not sleep at three in the morning. He has obsessive-compulsive disorder. We may all be some, but he is even more serious.

Biden did not invite him to the electric car summit that year and was cold to him. He was very angry, very angry.

We talked a lot and he also sent me a text message. That summit was held by Biden because Musk could not be invited because of the union issue. Musk was very anti-union, so he was not invited. He was very angry, very angry, and suffered trauma.

I called Biden's Steve Richty. I said, "Oh my God, you made a mistake. You should go and hug that person. He was really angry."

Steve said, "Oh, it's the union The reason. He should understand. He is an adult."

I thought to myself, no, he is not an adult.

Ezra: Biden's people pay great attention to interpersonal relationships, but they didn't realize how this neglect will hurt a person so arrogant--they're I made mistakes in things that I was good at.

Kara: Musk's reaction to contempt is strange. That hit him a big blow. Biden's people stimulated him.

I think he should be praised for Tesla, so why not give it to him? Despite the union, I still don't understand.

Addict and Crazy

Ezra: You didn't mention one factor, that is Twitter. The Wall Street Journal published an article a few years ago, tracking the number of his tweets year by year. From 2012 to 2014, his tweets surged. By 2018, he began to make full efforts.

The way he uses Twitter has also changed a lot. He is clearly influenced by some radical right-wing subcultures on Twitter.

I don't know if it's a chicken or an egg first, but he didn't become an average Republican. In some ways, he didn't even become an average MAGA Republican. He didn't become a Steve Bannon That kind of person. He was trapped in the world of Twitter anonymous.

Kara: Well, let's start with jokes. He likes dark memes.

Ezra: You know him better than I do, but I have come into contact with him a few times-that was a few years ago, before he became who he is now-I would tell people: He is the smartest in the world 15-year-old boy.

Kara: This is a good statement.

Ezra: He is addicted to memes. Memes is the entrance to the dark right on that platform.

Kala: Yes, I have personal experiences, Because my son likes dark memes. He often sends me that stuff and you'll get stuck in it very quickly.

I think that's what Twitter attracts him. And then it develops Going to a darker place. Apparently, he is an addictive person. Whether it is work or - "hard core" is one of his favorite words.

He likes addictive The stuff. So, his Twitter usage is crazy. He is a crazy person. Again, it's not an excuse, but an attempt to explain. He is a manic person—and very rebellious.

He always retweets some cheesy memes, he likes that world. Babylon Bee, a right-wing Christian humor account, was shut down by Twitter for trans issues (they awarded a trans Biden official with person of the year Award). That humor is stupid and vulgar, but why close it? I agree with him. But they shut it off, which makes him angry.

E Zla: One fact is that, as far as people of his class are concerned, he is good at social media. He uses social media like young people, not like Obama.

Kara : I don't think he is good at social media. My child always makes painful faces when he sees him.

Ezra: OK. But there are official voices on social media - Zuckerberg was the voice before he became Musk's online imitator, or Obama/Bill Gates. .

Musk's voice is different. He often responds to fans' small accounts. He has built an unprecedented power of attention. He likes to be followed. He also uses this power of attention. To drive the price of memes coins to rise. He knows how to convert attention into wealth - this is something that others don't have.

What sets him apart from those who look similar to him and gives him the temperament that is suitable for doing this?

Kara: His manic character is right? A manic addictive trait. And he has a sense of humor, and while that kind of humor isn't my tea, it can be quite charming. He said on Saturday Night Live:

[Archived Musk Audio] I know I sometimes say or post weird things, but that's how my brain works. For anyone I offended, I just want to say that I reshaped the electric car and will send people to Mars with a rocket ship. Do you think I would be a calm, normal guy?

He is so clumsy and cute.

Ezra: So many tech journalists you know, they are really surprised by this—

Kara: Indeed, I often I heard that you made him--don't you know-

Okay, I didn't know how he treated his children at that time.

Ezra: It wasn't you who made him. Tesla's success is because the car itself is of excellent quality.

Kala: I reported him as an automaker.

Back to where he is good at: like AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) and Trump, they are both good at shaping their own online presence. And it feels real, it feels their own voice.

People like celebrities to react to them, and that can cause a sensation. So you will get a lot of worshippers: Oh God, Musk has replied to me!

He also gained satisfaction from it. He initially combines humor with insights into interesting things, but quickly involves something he doesn't understand at all. He is self-righteous and likes to speak nonsense about things he doesn't understand.

Ezra: I remember that at the "Code" conference a few years ago, Musk was also on stage. You talked about how he believed in the simulation hypothesis, which argued that any civilization that is advanced enough would begin to simulate the world.

The number of simulated worlds will be greater than the number of base reality. Therefore, based on simple arithmetic, we are more likely to live in a simulated world than in the real world. Musk said he agrees with this view and believes that the possibility of us living in basic reality is very low.

Kara: He is fascinated by this—

Ezra: That's exactly what I want to say. I think his mind is always attracted by unusual ideas.

What most people believe in may be wrong—what you can and can’t do, what is real and what is fake. And he has been proven to be correct many times, and it has been proven in a heavy and far-reaching way.

Now he is the richest man in the world and has attracted the attention of the whole world. This will change people's psychology.

Not only is he interested in unusual ideas, but he is increasingly conspiracy theories based on what I have observed on Twitter. I'm curious how you understand this side of him.

Kara: New York Times reporter Kevin Roose made a good report on this. When you enter that bottomless pit, you find that everyone is influenced by social media.

The thinking of technicians is: this is possible; we can land on the moon. To do difficult things, you must have this kind of qualities and start with this personality. So, question everything: Why do you do this?

This is a kind of personality I like. But the problem is that they also question everything on topics such as Ukraine and vaccines.

He is very interested in ideas such as simulation. For example: Why can’t we live on Mars?

The starting point is good, but on social media – as Ruth points out – it usually quickly gets caught in the circle of conspiracy theories.

Ezra: And he was trapped in a special conspiracy theory. Someone tweeted that the Jews were "promoting a dialectical hatred: hating white people, but hoping that people would stop targeting them." Musk replied, "You told the truth."

Kara: On July 2024, on the eve of his outing to support Trump, accusing the Democratic Party of "introducing as many illegal voters as possible."

Ezra: He is a little different from many people who seem to have similar positions. I think he really believes in the theory of big replacement [Note].

Kara: Yes. So are many people in Silicon Valley. Let me say: Not only him is like this, many people are attracted by Curtis Yarvin [Note] things - thinking about it carefully, it is almost a kind of thing.

[Note] Curtis Yarvin, an American blogger, founded an anti-equal and anti-democratic movement called "Dark Enlightenment".

[Note] "Grand Replacement" is a conspiracy theory that the local population in the West is being largeImmigration, especially non-white immigrants, is gradually replaced. It was first proposed by French writer Renaud Camus. Despite the lack of scientific evidence, this theory has been widely criticized for being often exploited by far-right groups to promote racial anxiety and anti-immigration sentiment and incite hate crimes. The “Great Replacement” theory is part of the “white genocide” conspiracy theory with a wider scope and a longer history. The White Genocide Theory was proposed by American neo-Nazis David Lane in his 1995 book The White Genocide Manifesto, claiming that the Western world intends to turn white people into "extinct species."

There is an explanation that - although I don't want to say that - the poor little boy who didn't get enough love when he was a child was looking for the meaning of life and love. This is not an excuse for him, because he has become a terrible person and he should be treated.

But, providing the simple answer—“this is why you are not happy, that is why the world is like this”—those right-wing conspiracy theories do scratch the itch to some people.

This is a kind of . It is their interpretation of the world.

Ezra: It is also a kind of. Musk is South African. Peter Thiel spent most of his childhood in South Africa. David Sacks is also South African.

I don't know how much this explanation should account for, but it seems to make sense and is also interesting. Thiel, Musk and Sax are the three most important figures in Silicon Valley who support Trump. They have unique experiences that have witnessed the white minority in South Africa from being controlled to becoming a frightened minority.

Kara: Many people like this have this trait. The same goes for people in Silicon Valley.

This is combined with Silicon Valley's conception - highly masculine and self-knowledge - and it will be: Why do those stupid people block our way?

South Africa, I don't know. I don't know if what happened there made those people. It can also be said to be from Russia or people, or immigrants from India. They all bring the culture there.

For South Africa, you can choose two ways: Athol Fugard's [Note] way, or the way to miss the good times of the past. Athol Fugard, a South African playwright, is known for his anti-apartheid and profound drama, and is considered South Africa's greatest playwright.

They try to play men

Ezra: HorseSke bought Twitter, an unusual acquisition, and he tried to renege, but eventually bought it. After taking over, he immediately made drastic reforms.

People talk about layoffs, talk about cutting waste or reducing costs. But looking back, it’s a CEO’s re-establishment of control over the over-empowered liberal-inclined workforce, both from reality and from a Silicon Valley cultural standpoint. Please talk about his impact on employee culture.

Kara: Interestingly, many of those CEOs lack security. They want to be big shots, but they can't do it, and they won't do it because they are worried about what others say, so they just observe each other.

And this person, he does it when he comes up.

In Silicon Valley, employees are the protagonists and they like to speak freely. Google created this ethos, which stipulated that employees could speak freely every Friday. What will happen if it turns out?

Ezra: Facebook meets every Friday, and Zuckerberg answers employees' questions. They also developed internal chat software such as Slack and Teams, allowing employees to speak casually.

Kara: They empower employees. Then there was a CEO, who probably wasn't Xiaozha, and said, "Now they started talking back." I said, "What do you think?"

They're triggering the culture they created Things were surprised, I was surprised by their surprise.

They make employees say whatever they want. The employee said what he wanted to say. Then they were annoyed by those words.

It's hard for them to fight back because talent is valuable in Silicon Valley. So everyone must be themselves. This annoys many CEOs.

When Musk sees what he does, Silicon Valley CEOs will say: He can do this, I can't. I have to listen to diverse, fair and inclusive people – although I hate those people. But he doesn't have to, he can do whatever he wants.

When Musk did this and layed off employees, others wanted to follow suit.

Ezra: So, during the 2020-2024 epidemic, when #MeToo and Black Lives Matter rise, the Silicon Valley CEO class became extreme.

I think this has a lot to do with the rise of software like Slack and Teams. The relationship between the boss and the employee has changed, and the dimension of its change has been underestimated.

It is indeed possible to see this in Zuckerberg's personal transformation. Musk eventually became the embodiment of solving this problem. In my opinion, the reason why many CEOs are irritated is that they lose control of the company and they want to regain control.right.

This is exactly the same as the theory Musk has introduced now. He talks about cutting spending and reducing waste, but what he really wants to fight for Trump or himself is control.

Kara: That's right. He should be: Let me get rid of those who hate me.

Say it again, this is a kingly style. The way they created a company was monarchical. Zuckerberg has absolute control, he will not be fired, he will always be there.

They like the kingly style, but things don't work as they wish. Some reporters annoyed him, and some employees annoyed him. He must at least agree with diversity, otherwise he will be humiliated. In this regard, he does not have Musk's determination.

They try to prove themselves in the masculine way they see. That is the definition of a man. Many of them were not considered masculine when they were in high school. This is the nerd's revenge.

For Xiaoza, he used his necklace and T-shirt - I think it looks stupid, but it doesn't matter, just like he likes it - or mixed fighting, or jet ski, Or exercise, show muscles. The same goes for Jeff Bezos: look at my muscles, look at my beautiful fiancée. They try to play the role of men.

This is sad. But it gave them great comfort.

Ezra: For me, Musk and Zuckerberg's appointment to fight in the cage is a key signal that the consciousness of this class is changing.

This itself has some interesting topics: Zuckerberg takes it very seriously, and Musk keeps laughing at him. They didn't fight - if they fought, Zuckerberg would win, but Musk actually won because all he did was laugh at Zuckerberg.

Kara: They don't like each other.

Ezra: At a large CEO tech conference, Marc Andreessen [Note] was asked about the fight, and he replied on Substack: I Think they fight well because we lose the masculine virtues of the Greeks.

[Note] Marc Andreessen, co-founder of Netscape, is one of the most famous and influential venture capitalists in Silicon Valley and is regarded as the "unofficial godfather of Silicon Valley." He once supported Obama, and in recent years he advocated "Techno-Optimism" because of his anti-identity, deregulatory stance and advocacy of AI and blockchain, which has had a great influence on the right-wing and conservative technology circles due to his anti-identity, deregulatory stance and advocacy of AI and blockchain. .

In the right-wing intellectual subculture, those people feel that the world is becoming more and more feminine, while male virtues—aggression, combat, conflict, boldness, adventure, decisive decision-making—has been weakened.

So it needs to be corrected. Modernity is deviating from the track because we become feminine and weak. These venture capitalists and tech founders want to guide us back on track.

Kara: They didn't like women from the beginning. So it's not surprising.

Ezra: Interestingly, they also have to put a rational cloak on this statement.

Kara: It's true--there is no female among them. I wrote an article titled "Male and (No) Women in Facebook Management", and Xiaozha was very unhappy because of this. I thought to myself: I just posted photos of your management. You hired them.

They are very obsessed with what a man is and how to act.

The interesting thing is – especially Mark Anderson: I would be surprised if he could jog 10 feet. What else is there to talk about manliness - spare me.

When Zuckerberg said this, I thought: I can knock him to the ground in five seconds. Now he is going to challenge me to fight. As he pleases.

This is a concept about what a man is and is not, but they consider it to be.

Musk doesn't play that role often, except for the ridiculous actions he's doing. Those people often do that, Musk does not. But now they draw inspiration from his aggressiveness. This is very interesting.

Ezra: When they made a fight, Zuckerberg seemed to position himself as a Musk fighter. He has Threads, Musk has X. Zuckerberg imitates Musk, and his way of participating on Threads is how Musk participates on Twitter.

Kara: Yes, Zuckerberg is the second. [Laughs] He is really a number two. I like to say that.

Ezra: Musk has greatly reshaped the culture, sending at least one signal to take action for many people who are not ready to speak out their feelings. He leads tech leaders toward Trump and now shows how to transform it into power.

Peter Thiel—a blessing or a blessing—had supported Trump very early, but he did not try to take power on his own. Thiel bets and observes the returns of the bets. But Musk is showing: You can be the one in power. Not only can you have the power of the CEO, but you can also be one of the most important figures in the world - you can be a shadow president.

Kara: Zuckerberg avoids attention. He likes praise, but doesn't like accompanyingThose broken things that come with praise. That's why he isn't cruel enough.

Musk does have the courage. He is: I will do this no matter what. Whoever attacks me will be eaten as breakfast. If you have the ability, come and fight.

Ezra: Trump is the same, they have similar temperaments. To be so shameless, it takes an extremely unusual personality.

If you want to really wield power, you must be willing to be hated. And most of us don't want to be hated. Most CEOs are reluctant. And they made a choice. In my opinion, this unrestrainedness is at the heart of their alliance.

Kara: However, they still care deep down. What Trump wants most is that the New York Times like him. You can feel—that victim feeling—

Ezra: I don't believe it anymore. Maybe he thought so before. But I don't believe it anymore.

Kara: I think they all care about other people's opinions, almost too much. In many ways, their anger was fueled.

They have a small corner deep in their hearts and care a lot about other people's opinions. And this made them more and more bold. That is their core motivation.

Ezra: That might be their motivation. But I think that at a certain stage, losing faith is true radicalism. Radicalism often abandons normal pluralism, that is, we are a community. At this time, a total war broke out.

Trump, and Musk (the latter is more rational), see this as a total war where control must be won. He said on Rogan's show that if Trump doesn't win this time, there will be no more elections.

Musk devoted himself to this battle of human civilization. He obviously believes in some degree the theory of big substitution. He tried to help the far-right German Alternative Party be elected in Germany; he tried to get the British Labor Party down.

For a long time, Musk believed that humans eventually needed to become interstellar species, and other positions were outdated compared to this.

Kara: Look at the children he gave birth to. He shows himself by having many children, but rarely accompanying him, with only one child exception. He just cares about giving birth and not raising him.

Ezra: So, what is the goal now that motivates him? Do you really think it's Star Travel? Or does he think that these are losing their own culture, and once they lose their culture, everything will be lost?

Kara: I think it does stem from the need for humans to leave this planet. Since I met him, this is his unchanging view—civilization is destined to perish, so IWe need to leave the earth.

They believe deeply in their hearts that they are the best representative of human beings, that is, white people are superior human beings.

What he often says will reveal this. I forgot what he said, but the general idea is: we need more South Africans to come to the United States.

I never heard him express anything I think is racist—I have heard other CEOs say it. His racial discrimination is another form, more about social engineering, and believes that excellent talents are being replaced. I think he does believe that statement. Of course, that's also racism.

Ezra: As you said, the desire to become an interstellar traveler is still Musk's motivation. He just believes that the virus of diversity, fairness and inclusion and awakening thinking is eroding civilization and genius.

Kala: Our journey to a foreign land was hindered because the second-class person was in power - he often talked about this topic.

Once, he talked about caesarean section on Twitter, saying: Caesarean section is better for the brain, because if you don't have to go through the vagina, the brain will be bigger.

I had a caesarean section, so I thought to myself: Sir, sit down for me, you don’t know what you are talking about.

No one paid much attention to his words, but I thought at the time: Oh, he thought that fertility must be guaranteed - this is almost a kind of eugenics. He would actually make this point.

He has some theories about the human brain and development. Apparently, he was involved in the Neuralink project [Note]. He has always been interested in the fusion of machines and humans.

[Note] Musk's experiment in implanting computer chips into the human brain.

They don't care about you

Ezra: Go back to the topic—I extend what you said—to achieve the long-term goals of mankind, people like Musk need to control the Federation; A polity that is not influenced by modern progressive ideas of equality and consensus, a polity that is not committed to slow, cumbersome, regulatory and unmasculine things that allow the risk of 90 rocket explosions.

He tried to functionally make the Federation effectively controlled by people like him so that those goals could be achieved.

Kara: Yes, he thinks they are in the way. Some people say, Oh, they want to reform. I said: No, they want to burn it and start over.

This goes back to Peter Till. If you take the time to read Peter Thiel, he said: democracy doesn't work, we need to do something else.

It's a bit like "act quickly, break the rules" - it's a software term. They don't want to build, they just want to destroy. Only by destruction can it be built. This issubversion. All the words they use are about destruction. It’s not creative destruction, but: let’s erase everything and build the civilization we want.

They are best at embellishing this theory with this technological utopianism (actually technological dictatorship), and the world will become a better place as long as everyone listens to them.

Ezra: Let's regard it as a reform theory.

Kara: I know you like to say that.

I think democracy works quite well, but please go ahead.

Ezra: Musk once said that regulations should be cancelled by default. It does not exist by default, but it is canceled by default. If it turns out that a cancellation of a certain law is wrong, you can add it at any time.

In view of the long-term stable and serious bureaucracy, the theory is - this is also a theory for Twitter - turn off some things, cut them significantly, and solve problems if they occur . But it's better to cut thoroughly and rebuild in a clean way, not to cut it out enough.

Usually, reforms don't go that far. Institutional reform is very difficult and will bring many problems. San Francisco is inefficient and many parts of the federal government need to be improved.

So, is Muskism worth promoting? ——He is doing what ordinary reformers are reluctant to do and are willing to take risks for it. Is this the only way to create a less rigid federal bureaucracy?

Kara: No, I don't think so. Not at all. It's easy to push it back, isn't it? Sacrifice is a must. They don't care about this.

Many people will ask: How can they do this? How could they do this? I will say: They don't care about you. They don't think about you. You are nothing.

Musk was the first person to talk to me about artificial intelligence. What he cares about is the impact of artificial intelligence on humans. He founded OpenAI with Sam Altman, and for me, he was the first to bring up this warning.

At first he said: Artificial intelligence will kill us. Just like the plot in Terminator, right? Artificial intelligence becomes self-aware, and then in turn bombard us, kill us, and the world begins again. So we have to stop it.

The next time he meets him, he comes up with a more complicated idea: they won't kill us, they will treat us like pet cats. They like us here and will build everything to meet our needs. But we are not at risk. As long as they like pet cats, we won't be able to do anything. They don't take us seriously.

When I saw him later, he had this idea: artificial intelligence is like building a highway - a highway across the United States. Humans are ants. When we build roads, we will destroy the ant nest without hesitation. We didn't know there was an ant nest there, we just did what we were going to do.

He is expressing his style of doing things: those things are like anthills, don't think about them, because we never think about them. This is an interesting progress: he cared about the fate of mankind at first, but he did not.

Ezra: I like the progression of this metaphor.

An analogy to what Musk did is Twitter, who entered Twitter and used a very similar script to control the company. But then Twitter crashed and its advertising business crashed. It's still a bad platform, worse than ever. It has something that hasn't been before, like Grok, but its search still doesn't work.

When Trump outsourced everything to Musk, I wonder if he had considered the risks he had to take. In the next few years, all the bad things that may happen under the federal responsibility will be counted on him.

The recent horrible plane crash happened in the year the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) forced retirement—Musk forced FAA officials to resign—they should be blamed ?

Bad things happen all the time. They slash at the axe—forcing resignation indiscriminately, reassign jobs, and fire talented staff—and any mistakes should be attributed to them.

Kara: But they won't admit it. They would say: It's the ex who left a mess and we're cleaning it up.

Do you think they will care about the consequences?

Ezra: They only care about power.

Kara: They don't care about the consequences of destruction. They don't care, nor do they think about the consequences.

Twitter is smaller than the federal one. The only way he attracts advertisers is to threaten them and file many lawsuits. Of course, those advertisers will go back and will surrender to him—

Ezra: Now he has supreme power, right? Giving in favor of him is a bribery and elimination of disasters-

Kara: Tesla is not better than in the past, their cars have not innovated. Tesla's stock price may rise, but sales are falling because cars are not as good as before.

He doesn't care about the actual consequences. They all care only about destruction and then claim that they will make better.

But I don't know what they are going to do better. Ask them, they will just sayEverything was terrible and had to be cleared. They will never tell you what they use for substitution, because they have no theory of construction, only theory of destruction.

Just Trump claims on the issue of water: We must let the water flow!

What he did was a disaster. He wasted California's water resources - opening the reservoir for no reason to extinguish the fire.

And many people said, you did a good job!

Ezra: Thinking of controlling Twitter. After Musk acquired Twitter, Twitter's business plummeted. Obviously, he bought it for $44 billion. A year and a half ago, I would say: He lost a lot.

But in the end he turned Twitter into his personal channel. He turned all the attention and influence of Twitter into something he could control.

The value of power he gained from it is far more than $44 billion. Otherwise, Musk would not have played such a role outside.

Kara: This is the best investment he has made - except for the $280 million that helped Trump run for the election.

When he bought Twitter, we all thought: What's going on? Why did he pay so much money? What an idiot.

Ezra: He himself thought so. He tried to withdraw, feeling the price was overvalued.

Kara: He wants to quit, and he feels stupid. He didn't expect what he could do with it. He didn't know he owned a cannon.

Mark Cuban [Note] expected it and called me and said: Maybe he doesn't know what he is doing-if Tesla or Starlink is responsible When a person appears in international situations, he receives the same treatment as a supervisor at General Motors or Lockheed. But if he appears as a Twitter owner, from an influence perspective, he will have huge power worldwide.

[Note]Mark Cuban, an American entrepreneur, investor and media host in the field of technology, was once the owner of the Dallas Mavericks.

He said: That is not only working in the United States. Still leading the world.

Mark is 100% correct. Musk bought it and became the Twitter boss. He also has Tesla. No one can do this. Perhaps, a long time ago, Rupert Murdoch did it. But Musk is bigger, better, stronger and more influential. Murdoch would never think of sitting with Trump and cutting the United States.

[Note]Rupert Murdoch, an Australian-born American media giant, owns hundreds of media outlets around the world including the Sun, Times, Wall Street Journal, Fox News, etc. Forbes Fortune ranks 31st in the United States.

Ezra: Murdoch doesn't want to be the protagonist of his platform.

Kara: But Musk is a bit like Murdoch now. It's just a Murdoch who likes to be fooled.

Ezra: This analogy is very appropriate.

About, he may not know what he wants to build, but his experience on Twitter told him: If you destroy it, you can control it and make it your tool .

He hopes everyone knows that it was him. The emails that persuaded federal employees to resign were too obvious.

He wants everyone to know that it was him. He wants to be the protagonist of the whole thing—like you said at the beginning.

Kara: Thank goodness you said that, because the media are saying: It's so fun to use the same title.

And I said: He wants you to know.

Ezra: Just like he signed the autograph.

Kara: I hope others know everything he does. Because, he was extremely eager to pay attention, otherwise how could he chat with a man named Cartade late at night? Why?

Because there is a void in his heart that can never be filled. It was a deep well without bottom. I don't want to analyze because I'm not a psychologist, but my goodness, he does have a huge hole.

Neither Musk nor Trump have a solution, which is obvious. They will only say what the problem is, but they have no vision.

What vision do they have other than "don't get in the way and let me do what I want to do"?

Ezra: Magic novels have the concept of "sin devourer". That kind of thing will devour sin and be purified. That's a victim role.

Kara: It's a bit like Jesus.

Ezra: It's a bit like it to some extent. The war between Trump and his people are difficult. Assuming things get worse, Musk has to take a lot of responsibility, which makes him a very useful victim. Those who are cautious and unspeakable around Musk—Susie Wileses, Russ Voughts—who are not opposed to— p>

[Note]Susie Wileses, White House Chief of Staff, Trump's campaign director

[Note]Russ Voughts, American Christian, author of the 2025 plan, Trump's second In office director of the Office of Management and Budget.

Kara: They let the wind down and said: We can't control him.

Ezra: Yes, there are many such statements.

Once he becomes a negative asset, he can get rid of him. Trump will say: Musk is out of control, it is not what we did. Someone is Ready to turn the blame.

Kara: There are always such people in Trump's life, Michael Cohen)[Note] is. Now he has the most powerful one. There are always people in his life who are willing to go through fire and water for his boss - obviously he likes to be called the boss.

[Note] Michael Cohen, a former private lawyer for Trump, once said he wanted to block bullets for Trump. Later, he was sentenced to prison for helping Trump fraud and became a tainted witness.

Musk is such a heavyweight figure. He is more protected because of his wealth.

Ezra: Do you think the relationship between them How real is it?

Kara: Trump only has three emotions: A, B, or C. He has no complex emotions.

I think they will have a stumble, I know he makes Trump unhappy. At the same time, Trump loves money, which is his core.

Trump feels He is useful, and he does work for Trump. He is like a useful wild dog who charges. And he has a lot of money. If Trump wants to deal with senators, Musk will pay them to lose. Trump is simply Have an endless bank.

Trump also knows that he needs Musk to maintain power. He won't want Musk to leave, and that will Musk be angry ——He has the ability to retaliate.

So it may last for a while. What he does may become more and more outrageous. Trump will be infinitely tolerant: Oh, he said racist words I don't care.

may last a long time.

Break everything

Ezra: I was surprised to see Trump trying to show Musk under his control. He said : “Elon can do nothing without our approval, and will not do anything. We will approve it as appropriate, and we will not approve it if it is inappropriate. ”

But there are constant news coming from within that he is not under any control.

I think both are true--Trump can refuse, but in fact he doesn't care. So, from a strange point of view, the danger for them is that Musk has super powers and almost endlessly desires risks, and the risks he takes could put everyone in trouble.

Kara: What risks will it be? Detonate a nuclear bomb?

Ezra: If you are destroyed, things will get extremely bad.

What a negative view to believe that if so many excellent employees are driven away, the world will be safe and sound if disaster occurs? And disasters often occur - the epidemic broke out during Trump's first term.

Trump had a strange ability in his first term-he was responsible for management, but he could seem out of his position. This allows him to distinguish himself from work he doesn't like in strange ways. His deepest theory worked.

But now he doesn't have that excuse. If you take such open and tough measures to drive away so many people, you have to take all the risks. Things are broken, people look back and say: Elon, those people accept the buyout, they choose the fork you gave.

Kara: Your premise is that they care about damage. They don't care, they won't take responsibility. Have you heard of Zuckerberg taking responsibility for any issues?

Ezra: Trump has something to care about. As the market began to fluctuate, he quickly withdrew tariffs on Canada and Mexico. He also doesn't want to lose the midterm elections in a scattered way.

Kara: Yes. One of the reasons why he had to keep Musk was money—in order to manipulate, to win the midterm election, a lot of money was needed.

But then again: they don't actually care. The damage has been caused. Musk believes that breaking everything is the only way to do it. They want you to focus only on destruction and not notice that you live in a destroyed world.

Destruction is everywhere, and it is difficult to figure out what has been destroyed. People don’t feel angry, they only feel powerless.

Ezra: They often attempt to cause this feeling of powerlessness.

I want to ask a question about Silicon Valley's technology culture. There is a trend now, and people are galloping towards technological totalitarianism.

This trend has developed very rapidly and violently among the cultural leaders of Silicon Valley. Those who have the largest social media accounts are all present at Trump's inauguration.

Do you see the reverse power for that cultural trend? Are they all flowing in that direction? Are the employees moving in that direction?

What is reverse bet in front of this kind of culture? It was very different ten years ago, when everyone supported Obama.

Kara: I can tell you that they do not support Biden.

Ezra: They don't support Biden. But in 2016 they hated Trump - except Thiel.

So the change is very fast. This makes me wonder what it will be like in four years. Do you know who is the signal of change you are paying attention to?

Kara: How many people are there. Reid Hoffman just came on my podcast this week. I could feel his fear. He funded E. Jean Carroll's lawsuit. He is a very cute person, and is impartial - almost to the point of paranoid. I don't think he's as radical as before. He must be thinking: What should I do? I'm in danger.

Mark Cuban is another category. He told me that he didn't want to run for president. I think he has a chance, and he can say: Please, we shouldn't have done this.

Not everyone has turned. He turned a little loud, such as Musk, David Sachs and the like.

Not everyone agrees with the turn. Tim Cook didn't sit in the front row. He doesn't need to appear in that photo.

I never think Silicon Valley is liberal, I think they are utilitarian. They are tolerant on social issues, but they don't really care. They didn't think much about it, they just wanted to do their own business.

I don't think they support Trump, but both Bob Iger and anyone else have to pay tribute. Now they have no choice.

[Note]Bob Iger, CEO of Disney.

I don't think Trump has many supporters, some of whom are loud, and others just shake their heads helplessly.

In this case, a counter-strength force is often formed. Those people are destroying everything, right? As you said, when disaster strikes, it will be a huge chaos.

They took the team in that direction because it was good for them and shareholders. They will do whatever they do when it is beneficial to shareholders - if Trump makes the stock market fall, they will immediately stand opposite Trump.

Because they have no real values, they don't have them at all. Musk has more values ​​than most of them, although that value is a bit distorted and deformed. So I think that no matter where the financial market goes, they will follow. This is my feeling.

Ezra: It is quite appropriate to end the interview at this point. Thank you very much, Kara Swisher.